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	<title>Comments on: Great post at Future Oakland about transit advocacy in Oakland</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16</link>
	<description>The Continuing Story of a City</description>
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		<title>By: markko</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-242086</link>
		<dc:creator>markko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-242086</guid>
		<description>at the risk of re-opening a conversation that seems in happy repose, i&#039;ll provide an answer to the questions about road subsidy, in a few points:

1.  the caltrans budget is only a small fraction of statewide spending on roads ... it *does* include most highway spending, but no local streets.

2.  direct user fees (gas tax, vehicle registration, tolls, and fines) do NOT cover the full cost of either the Caltrans portion (highways) or the other parts (local streets and roads).  over the past 15 years or so, we&#039;ve come to rely much more upon general sales tax (i.e., the sales tax applied to all taxable goods) and on the state general fund (to repay bond indebtedness).  note, however, that this is not a conspiracy, it is an explicit choice that the voters of the the state and of various counties have made.  (it&#039;s also, to my way of thinking, a mistake, but that&#039;s the risk that comes along with democracy).

3.  the sales tax on gas used to go the the state general fund and now is dedicated to transportation, but this tax should nonetheless be considered a direct user fee, not a subsidy.

4.  people also point to other forms of subsidy for roads (free land for roads, free parking required by planning codes, etc).  obviously you won&#039;t find these numbers in any state or local budget.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>at the risk of re-opening a conversation that seems in happy repose, i&#8217;ll provide an answer to the questions about road subsidy, in a few points:</p>
<p>1.  the caltrans budget is only a small fraction of statewide spending on roads &#8230; it *does* include most highway spending, but no local streets.</p>
<p>2.  direct user fees (gas tax, vehicle registration, tolls, and fines) do NOT cover the full cost of either the Caltrans portion (highways) or the other parts (local streets and roads).  over the past 15 years or so, we&#8217;ve come to rely much more upon general sales tax (i.e., the sales tax applied to all taxable goods) and on the state general fund (to repay bond indebtedness).  note, however, that this is not a conspiracy, it is an explicit choice that the voters of the the state and of various counties have made.  (it&#8217;s also, to my way of thinking, a mistake, but that&#8217;s the risk that comes along with democracy).</p>
<p>3.  the sales tax on gas used to go the the state general fund and now is dedicated to transportation, but this tax should nonetheless be considered a direct user fee, not a subsidy.</p>
<p>4.  people also point to other forms of subsidy for roads (free land for roads, free parking required by planning codes, etc).  obviously you won&#8217;t find these numbers in any state or local budget.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralph</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-242014</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 02:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-242014</guid>
		<description>Robert, Chuck? The other day, I ran into someone who I initially didn&#039;t recall mtg. He was rather sure we did. We thought we figured it out, but I woke the following day in a bolt - it wasn&#039;t what we thought. I am pretty sure he and I met at Center Stage. 

I did the search for subsidy a few days ago in the context of a FB discussion with a friend in the renewables &amp; alternatives energy business. We were trying to figure identify what would make alternatives more attractive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, Chuck? The other day, I ran into someone who I initially didn&#8217;t recall mtg. He was rather sure we did. We thought we figured it out, but I woke the following day in a bolt &#8211; it wasn&#8217;t what we thought. I am pretty sure he and I met at Center Stage. </p>
<p>I did the search for subsidy a few days ago in the context of a FB discussion with a friend in the renewables &amp; alternatives energy business. We were trying to figure identify what would make alternatives more attractive.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-242007</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-242007</guid>
		<description>Nothing to be worried about, given the general opaqueness of the budget documents. And the CA ones are a model of clarity compared to Oakland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing to be worried about, given the general opaqueness of the budget documents. And the CA ones are a model of clarity compared to Oakland.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Fischer</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-242006</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-242006</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the correction.  You&#039;re right that I misread what the $8.9 billion included.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the correction.  You&#8217;re right that I misread what the $8.9 billion included.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-242004</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-242004</guid>
		<description>Ralph, I don&#039;t think we have met, but I think we micht share a barber on Lakeshore? What are the sources for your research?

Eric, The $8.9B number includes fuel taxes, vehicle license and registration, but not the sales tax. Sales tax on autos is not broken out from other sales taxes in the budget summaries. Total state sales tax is about $30B, so around $2B seems reasonable for the sales tax on vehicles. Here is the link for revenue:
http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/BS_SCH8.pdf

Whether it is appropriate to allocate the auto sales taxes to roads is not my point. My point that car owners pay enough as part of the direct costs of driving a car to cover the bulk of highway costs. Appropriateness is a political question, not financial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralph, I don&#8217;t think we have met, but I think we micht share a barber on Lakeshore? What are the sources for your research?</p>
<p>Eric, The $8.9B number includes fuel taxes, vehicle license and registration, but not the sales tax. Sales tax on autos is not broken out from other sales taxes in the budget summaries. Total state sales tax is about $30B, so around $2B seems reasonable for the sales tax on vehicles. Here is the link for revenue:<br />
<a href="http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/BS_SCH8.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/BS_SCH8.pdf</a></p>
<p>Whether it is appropriate to allocate the auto sales taxes to roads is not my point. My point that car owners pay enough as part of the direct costs of driving a car to cover the bulk of highway costs. Appropriateness is a political question, not financial.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralph</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-242000</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-242000</guid>
		<description>Robert, as we have not to my knowledge met, i will let you in on a little secret, if I start a sentence with, &quot;I was under the impression&quot; &quot;Correct me if I am wrong&quot; or anything like that I have completed the research and reached my own conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert, as we have not to my knowledge met, i will let you in on a little secret, if I start a sentence with, &#8220;I was under the impression&#8221; &#8220;Correct me if I am wrong&#8221; or anything like that I have completed the research and reached my own conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Fischer</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-241999</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-241999</guid>
		<description>If anyone actually wants to read the Caltrans budget, here it is: http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/GovernorsBudget/2000/2660.pdf

If you believe what it says at the top, 2008-2009 Caltrans expenses are $14.3 billion dollars.  Elsewhere it is claimed that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/RevenueEstimates.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fuel, vehicle registration and vehicle sales taxes&lt;/a&gt; total $8.9 billion.  The Caltrans budget says that $3.6 billion comes from the Federal Trust Fund.  That seems to leave $1.8 billion unaccounted for and coming from some other source.

(This is also assuming that it is appropriate to spend all vehicle-related revenues on vehicle-related expenses.  Other sales taxes aren&#039;t automatically spent on infrastructure for the things that are sold.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone actually wants to read the Caltrans budget, here it is: <a href="http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/GovernorsBudget/2000/2660.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/GovernorsBudget/2000/2660.pdf</a></p>
<p>If you believe what it says at the top, 2008-2009 Caltrans expenses are $14.3 billion dollars.  Elsewhere it is claimed that <a href="http://www.ebudget.ca.gov/pdf/BudgetSummary/RevenueEstimates.pdf" rel="nofollow">fuel, vehicle registration and vehicle sales taxes</a> total $8.9 billion.  The Caltrans budget says that $3.6 billion comes from the Federal Trust Fund.  That seems to leave $1.8 billion unaccounted for and coming from some other source.</p>
<p>(This is also assuming that it is appropriate to spend all vehicle-related revenues on vehicle-related expenses.  Other sales taxes aren&#8217;t automatically spent on infrastructure for the things that are sold.)</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-241996</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-241996</guid>
		<description>As they say, show me the data :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As they say, show me the data <img src='http://www.abetteroakland.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mike d'Ocla</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-241995</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike d'Ocla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:55:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-241995</guid>
		<description>Robert: &quot;Fuel taxes, registration/license fees, sales taxes on cars and federal grants are equivalent to the entire CalTrans budget. Are things exactly in balance? Hard to say...but they are roughly equivalent.&quot;

Nope. 

Auto-related expenses which are not covered by fuel taxes, registration/license fees, etc., include police, fire and emergency services (a large percentage of which have to do with cars) etc., etc. Not to mention that the current CalTrans budget does not cover the &quot;deferred maintenance&quot;--CalTrans is way in the hole because of worn-out roads, bridges, and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert: &#8220;Fuel taxes, registration/license fees, sales taxes on cars and federal grants are equivalent to the entire CalTrans budget. Are things exactly in balance? Hard to say&#8230;but they are roughly equivalent.&#8221;</p>
<p>Nope. </p>
<p>Auto-related expenses which are not covered by fuel taxes, registration/license fees, etc., include police, fire and emergency services (a large percentage of which have to do with cars) etc., etc. Not to mention that the current CalTrans budget does not cover the &#8220;deferred maintenance&#8221;&#8211;CalTrans is way in the hole because of worn-out roads, bridges, and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: V Smoothe</title>
		<link>http://www.abetteroakland.com/great-post-at-future-oakland-about-transit-advocacy-in-oakland/2009-10-16#comment-241994</link>
		<dc:creator>V Smoothe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.abetteroakland.com/?p=3768#comment-241994</guid>
		<description>What data do you need, Robert? You arbitrarily pick one source of transportation funding because if you screw with random and unrelated numbers enough, you can make them add up to that source&#039;s budget. But anyone who knows anything about transportation funding knows that most of it doesn&#039;t come from Caltrans, it is distributed through MPOs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What data do you need, Robert? You arbitrarily pick one source of transportation funding because if you screw with random and unrelated numbers enough, you can make them add up to that source&#8217;s budget. But anyone who knows anything about transportation funding knows that most of it doesn&#8217;t come from Caltrans, it is distributed through MPOs.</p>
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